Another Dimension, Another Dimension: Josh Pearce and Arley Sorg Discuss Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse

Miles Morales aka Spider-Man (aka Shameik Moore) is back! He’s a little bit older, and this means he’s developed his spider skills a bit more. It also means he’s dealing with a lot of the issues kids his age deal with, like figuring out his place in the world, and navigating the shifts in his relationship with his parents. When a new villain named Spot (Jason Schwartzman) pops up, Spider-Man delivers a humiliating defeat. Spot desperately seeks ways to get stronger, and triggers a series of catastrophic events that Spider-Man has to deal with. Meanwhile, Gwen Stacy aka Spider-Gwen (aka Hailee Steinfeld) is also back, navigating her versions of some classic spider-themes in her own universe. She ends up leaving her reality to join a reality-hopping group of spider-people. Gwen’s narrative intersects with that of Miles, and before long, Miles has to figure out his place in the multiverse, not to mention just what his relationship with Gwen exactly is, all while dealing with an array of reality-ripping problems.

If you liked Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse then you will probably really enjoy Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse. The sequel succeeds in doing what so many sequels fail to do: delivering a follow-up which is about as good as the original.

Arley: So, did you know it was going to be a part one?

Josh: I did, did you?

Arley: I did not, but if you know movies, you get to a point in the movie where you realize they have way too many threads to tie up with the amount of time left. And you start to get a feeling. So I didn’t realize it until I watched it.

Josh: I thought it was going to be Across the Spider-Verse part one, and the next one would be Across the Spider-Verse part two, and then they would do a third one. But this is an actual trilogy, and this movie is a cliffhanger. I was kind of judging it with the criteria of: is this going to be self-contained enough to be entertaining on its own, without having to judge it as half a story? Like Avengers: Infinity War — you know that’s going to be followed up by another one, but that movie is still great on its own. I think Across the Spider-Verse, for the most part, worked pretty well – it’s not self-contained, but there’s enough in this movie to be entertaining on its own.

Arley: I would say there are two complete character arcs within this movie, because both Gwen and Miles have their character transformation arcs, where they’re changed people by the end. This gives it that satisfying sense of being a complete story, even though there is still more to come.

Josh: The art direction and sound design are phenomenal, and so is the music selection. Every scene change was a different style. Even within a single scene, there’s a bunch of styles working together. They switch animation styles to convey mood changes or, like –

Arley: Character changes.

Josh: There was also really good shortcut storytelling. When Gwen is catching the helicopter, it goes for just a split second flashback to her playing the drums. That conveys her sense of timing with the propeller, with no dialogue. It doesn’t dwell on it. It doesn’t beat you over the head with it. It’s great nonverbal, visual storytelling. And, obviously, because it’s animation, everything onscreen is intentional. You’re not just capturing whatever’s in the background. I wish I could pause the movie every five seconds and freeze frame and look closely at all the stuff on the screen. There’s so much going on, it’s almost overwhelming. I love the amount of work that went into it, and the amount of skill it took to pull all that off. Everything merged together so seamlessly.

Arley: This film is excellent on so many levels, it’s almost ridiculous. The writing, the production, the animation, the action – even just the fact that you’re stressed out for people who are, basically, cartoons. But you know that within the narrative people will get hurt or maybe even die. So the sense of stakes on an emotional level is expertly conveyed. The body language of the different characters, and the personalities. There are big choices and little choices. Just, all these tiny little things – even the throwaway lines, and the meta-commentary, the layers of meta-commentary – and the humor! So well done.

Josh: Not only did they sustain the level of writing quality they had in the first one, but I think they kicked it up a notch. The scope is so much bigger, because you have all these different spider-people, and they’re all distinct. While I was watching this movie I was like, “Oh, I like that character.” And a few seconds later: “I like that character, too.” Then I realized that I liked something about nearly every character that came on. No one was a total throwaway character, or a cardboard cutout, or underdeveloped. When someone was off screen, I’d think, “Oh, I wish that character would come back,” and they would, and another character would leave. Then I wanted that character to come back. I wanted to see all these characters all the time. They’re all great to look at. They all do really cool things. They all have quirks so you can tell them apart.

Careful, deliberate writing and stunning voice acting, paired with evocative art, deliver an experience which is pretty much unmatched in animated film (at least, in our experience). The clever layering of conversations, dialogue which feels natural but which also achieves what’s needed for the story, and so much more, all syncretize, placing this film among the best, including “live action” movies. Subtle, deliberate decisions around things like the power structure of the family and the presentation of masculinity offer subtext, flavor, and a distinctiveness of tone. So much about it is not just thoughtful, but beautiful, while being grounded in the relatable.

Josh: I actually really liked how they portrayed the parents, because it’s just out of touch enough with a teenager’s life to provide comedic moments, but they’re not portrayed as bumbling or inept, which is what a lot of sitcoms would do. And his reaction to them, what you’re seeing of them, is kind of like his view of them. But he still loves them and respects them, so it’s never “Oh, my parents, they suck,” or “They’re the worst,” but, “Oh, you have no idea what’s going on in my life, but I’m going to listen to you.” It’s not a dynamic you see a lot and it feels really natural, which is great.

Arley: I’m really burnt out on the whole toxic teen narrative, especially when the teen is terrible for no apparent reason, and the parents are great, reasonable people. It probably appeals to parents who don’t like to see their own shortcomings – the idea that terrible teenhood is inevitable. It’s become an overused trope in film and TV, and is often a cheap device to infuse friction into the story. In Across, I really like how both families have a deep rooted love, but they have problems, they have their difficulties communicating. And, you know, they have their fears, which are expressed nicely in the film. Among these fears is the fact that everyone is afraid of fucking it all up. The son, Miles, is afraid that if he reveals who he really is, his parents won’t love him anymore. These things are played out as superhero-related drama but they are also actually real things, like, these are real dynamics that people go through.

Josh: A lot of it felt almost like a metaphor for coming out stories and the like.

Arley: Exactly! I definitely related to it in that way, to the point where I was trying to not read it that way, thinking, this might not be the intention. And yet, I kind of couldn’t help it because the similarities are so striking.

Josh: I mean, it works on different levels for different things but, especially near the end where he was talking to his mom, I felt there’s this moment where he could just as easily say, “I’m gay,” but he comes out as Spider-Man.

The writers do a great job of upending some expectations and meeting others. Everything feels like it makes sense, everything feels connected, but there are enough surprises that it never gets boring and too predictable. Heroes are given limitations, demonstrated in various ways, such as when Gwen collapses after an early battle; and we are familiar with their utter mortality – we feel the possibility that someone might actually die. This sets the tone early on and goes far in developing tension, especially during action scenes. Across delivers action which is exciting and nerve-wracking (in the best of ways) when so many live-action movies just… don’t.

What makes Across succeed where many fail? It’s got all the “cool,” all the flashy ideas, all the superhero elements; but it also has a deep-rooted, effectively expressed sense of stakes, not to mention hitting a range of emotional beats in a variety of ways. And oh yeah, a healthy dose of multilayered, multilevel humor, occasionally pointing to itself and saying, we all know how ridiculous this is, but it’s great fun!

Josh: That Vulture in the opening was awesome. It’s like a Leonardo da Vinci drawing, growing wings from different sketches and pulling stuff out of notebook paper that came to life. That’s a really cool character design, and it looks great. It matches in this movie, because everyone’s just like a paper cut out, literally in some cases. Oh my god, that was such a great sequence. Speaking of metanarrative, I like how they took the concept of a “canon” and embedded that into the world building. Really interesting, although it does kind of make me wonder what that means: is Spider-Man the most important person in the MCU because every story then literally revolves around him, and if he steps out of the story, the entire universe collapses? Or is that only true for Spider-Man movies? What bigger consequences might it have in this universe? They even used the live action films, showing Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield, which pulls in the last Spider-Man movie. Is this going to mesh up with Doctor Strange, will everything come together consistently, or are we just having fun over here?

Arley: This is one of the weaknesses of Marvel movies – they didn’t plan ahead enough for the richness of the Marvel Universe, they presented these constrained realities in the film versions. So, where’s everyone else? Where’s the Fantastic Four during the all the events to-date? Where are the Avengers when Spot is going around messing with reality? Where’s Galactus? He can’t be too happy with the idea of someone messing with actual reality. Where are the Guardians of the Galaxy?

Josh: The What If series, it’s animated, but they’re messing with everything, and all these powerful creatures are watching what’s happening.

Arley: In the comics, sometimes they will bring things together, but then sometimes they don’t. Every now and then they’ll make an offhanded comment in a storyline to explain why characters or a group were absent from some major, world shaking event. But, kind of like when we were watching Eternals, the MCU films forget that maybe these giant celestial beings would show up to oppose Thanos messing with reality – and in the comic books, all these beings did show up to oppose Thanos. If Spot is a reality-warping threat…. I mean, we’re talking about comic books at the end of the day. You can pick and choose what you want to pay attention to, I guess. But I feel like when they started making the movies, they kind of needed a guidebook to help them leave room for all these future world building possibilities. Thor, in fighting Thanos, would have known about the Celestials and other beings, and could have had a throwaway line saying he’s surprised none of the galactic heavy hitters are here, which just leaves it open for interpretation, and for larger universe implications.

Josh: Sometimes a story works really well as a book or a comic book, but doesn’t translate well to the screen. We’re watching a movie, we’re not reading the comic book. They are two different things. Across the Spider-Verse is a really good example of how to cross it over or even just to pretend like they’re not different mediums. You can look at this movie and be like, Yeah, this is a comic book, and it’s still great.

Arley: Personally, I think this movie, this animated format film, is actually way more satisfying than most Marvel properties that I’ve seen. And I say this as somebody who, you know, for decades has been hungry for quality live-action superhero movies.

Josh: I would be fine with a lot of the Marvel movies being in this style and not live action just because the quality is so high. This movie has me waiting on the next one. I think the thing is that they develop these characters so well, that you’re invested in these completely fake, animated, non-existent beings, and it’s just amazing that they managed to do that. How do you feel about the fact that this movie was written by a writing team that is essentially writing outside of their own demographics?

Arley: Similar to how I feel about Lovecraft Country. It’s very well done. Nine times out of ten when white people write people of color, they at least get a lot of things wrong, often worse. But the writers did a great job. Everything from idioms to body language and more. It’s not that I think people can’t write outside of their lived experiences, but I do think they need to take steps to make sure they get it right, which so often doesn’t happen – people usually assume they already know what they need to know, and end up replicating bad stereotypes and misinformation. From a sociopolitical standpoint, the other side of it is, there is a paucity of room made for creators of color. The film industry isn’t as eager to give creators of color that same money. So, maybe there are creators of color out there, maybe there’s a writing team that comes more directly from the kinds of communities that are represented in this film, folks who could have put this film together, or been co-writers at least. Maybe they would have done just as good a job, but they’re not being given the opportunity. How many Puerto Rican film makers are being given big movie deals? But I’m betting there are some awesome Puerto Rican creatives out there who deserve the funding and the chance. So, you have folks who are, you know, admittedly, doing a great job of writing people of color, and communities of color, and cultures of color. Even adding nuances about cultural dysphoria, which many of us who grow up biracial experience, and having this language throughline which nods to generational aspects of this experience (how Miles isn’t as good with Spanish as mom and mom is deliberately speaking to him in Spanish, and then later on, he throws it back in her face – with love and a smile). It’s hard to say it could have been better, because even if there are certain things that were just slightly off from my experiences, or that could have been stronger when I think critically about it, the fact is, maybe it rings true to someone else’s experience. One of the three writers is a person of color, and at least one of the three directors, that probably helped a lot. I think they did a fucking brilliant job. But like, it would be nice if a lot more people of color who were given chances to do this kind of shit.

Josh: I’m wondering, behind the scenes, who is responsible for what, how much input different individuals had, how much they were listened to. People of color may have contributed a lot to the writing. There’s a lot of like, guild specific negotiations about who gets credit for what, and the credits don’t always reflect what the creative process was.

Arley: I do feel like this one leans into being a comic book more, or embraces being a comic book more than the first one, from visual style to storytelling and in pretty much every way. It felt more like watching a comic book than the first one did. The first one felt like it was more about interpreting comic books and this one felt more like you’re entering a collage of comic books.

Josh: I like how this basically turns the entire multiverse into a trolley problem, and that Miles is not constantly coming into contact with different versions of himself. It’s not a multiverse that’s split because of his decisions, which a lot of other multiverse narratives are, and that’s very egocentric, or verging on solipsism. The branching points of all these universes is the spider itself. It’s not the people. It’s a different way of looking at a very common motif. What other things are we gonna say about this movie?

Arley: I have my minor quibbles, as always, but I loved nearly everything about it.

Josh: There were so many stand-out moments from their different versions of reality, just folded casually into the movie. They didn’t dwell on it – it just went by and you’re like, “Well, that was cool!” There was even a sequence I loved that made me actually want their superpowers, which is not something I feel when I watch superhero movies, ever. Other superheroes seem to view their abilities as such a burden. But this — it was exciting and dynamic. It was even joyous. And some of the shots showing the way they use their powers could be a metaphor for when you’re a teenager and you find a new way to do something, when you’re at that age, and you suddenly realize you have a new freedom. I don’t know if it’s like getting your car or not having a curfew or finding a way to sneak out at night or something else. Suddenly you have a superpower, and it expands your horizons, even if briefly.

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Directed by: Joaquim Dos Santos, Kemp Powers & Justin K. Thompson

Written by: Phil Lord, Christopher Miller & Dave Callaham

Starring: Shameik Moore, Hailee Steinfeld, Brian Tyree Henry, Luna Lauren Velez, Jake Johnson, Oscar Isaac, Jason Schwartzman, Issa Rae, Daniel Kaluuya, Karan Soni, Shea Whigham, Greta Lee & Mahershala Ali

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